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Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey 
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Post Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
http://www.[another website].com/Forums/video.php?page=4


Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:32 am
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
Thanks jf1acai. We've been looking forward to this. But before I get them downloaded and watched, something strikes me right away on all of these. Do they pick the creepiest people in the county to run this committee? Or is the whole committee like this? Are these the best of Republicans they can find in the county?

I'm thinking of switching. Or wearing a bag over my head.

Anyway, thanks for making these recordings available. I watch them all. It's just creepy.

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Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:13 am
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
I'm not going to editorialize much on content at this time. But I have to say - in my 20+ years involved in Park County politics, I have never seen a candidate booed like that.

It was a shock.


Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:00 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
He deserved to be booed! What an arrogant declaration! Mike's list of training and qualifications seem to be triple what Fred's are, especially if you look at what Fred knew when he first took office. His opponent was the Sheriff and very well qualified and he didn't think that mattered at the time. I know why he did it. He wanted to get an angry outburst from his opponents and he succeeded. He needed to show everybody that he wasn't the only one who was going to yell when provoked (because of the youtube videos of him swearing and throwing a woman out of his office). For that, Mike and his partner were dumb to even react. Still, it was an aggressive bully approach as we have seen before. But he got what he wanted and was smirking as he left, I think. He poked them and they blew up. If I'm wrong about what I heard, please correct me.

On the other hand, Mike says he's known about a pedophile and something going on with students at school but he blames the newspaper for not doing his work for him to notify the public. Why didn't he go get the documents since he seems to be such an expert on open records and internal affairs files? Where are the files and information the public needs to have? You're just going to blame somebody else because you didn't want to do the work to go get them. You've known about it all along and didn't go get a file you say exists to prove it?? And I have no idea what you mumbled through before you read the letter because you didn't explain what it was.

I see that Randy Wagner is now over on another forum fighting with posters who criticize him even a little bit. That tops the stupid campaign idea list. Try acting EXACTLY like Fred, why dontcha.

Somebody said what we need most desperately is adult supervision. I'm afraid we don't have it in that race. I am very disappointed. VERY disappointed at the childish behavior from these men who want to control the county's law enforcement and a very large budget.

I thought I had made up my mind, but now I don't think I want any of them. The longer this goes on, the worse they all get.

:please: There has to be some better people out there who could run for these county offices. If I were a cop, I'd go run. Managing what I do would make me a better administrator than either one of them and certainly less of an immature hothead. Besides, I'm qualified to supervise children.

Thank you [another website] for taping these. It sure has opened my eyes. (8o

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Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:18 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
Are there people who now have some kind of defamation suits against the Sheriff? Mike, his opponent, is sort of fair game because he's a public candidate. But Randy Wagner might have been falsely defamed by Fred at that debate. Randy did work for the Sheriff so I guess he was qualified at the time. Why, after years more of training and experience would he be unqualified now? I think, in a layman's terms, that statement was obviously false and malicious and spoken against someone not running for office.

The same could be said for the deputy who left in 2008 that the Sheriff connected with a sexual episode with teenagers in that letter he wrote to the Flume. He explained it was a confidential matter but then named the deputy involved publicly. If that deputy doesn't want to come back here, he might not want to bother suing Fred, but I guess he might be able to, wouldn't he?

It's bad business if that was Randy who erupted in the crowd when Fred said what he said. I don't know. Can somebody answer that for sure? I think MM is right - that's what Fred was after to take the attention off him as the thug in the youtube video. If Fred had somebody there with a camera on Mike and Randy, we may just see that pop up next.

On the other issues, I agree with you MM. If Mike knew of some threat to the community, he should have done everything in his power to prove it and broadcast the information to the public. He shouldn't have sat back and expected somebody else to do it. That's lazy. But if it's true, then Fred is guilty of pretty bad coverups. Fred seems to let his own people get away with anything they want to do. Very dangerous.


Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:31 am
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
MountainMom wrote:
For that, Mike and his partner were dumb to even react. Still, it was an aggressive bully approach as we have seen before. But he got what he wanted and was smirking as he left, I think. He poked them and they blew up. If I'm wrong about what I heard, please correct me.


Will do. I was there, sitting close to the front. I didn't see what Randy said or did, but when people started booing and shouting, Mike said, "Let him speak." He said it several times. He didn't stand up, just gestured with his hand telling the crowd to let Fred speak.

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:23 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
That's good to know Windchime. Mike has had trouble with some of his supporters and they don't seem to know or care that they are hurting him. Good that he showed he had more class than either them or Fred. Fred sure doesn't seem to have any of it.

MM, I usually agree with you a lot. But I think that Mike deserves a lot of credit for standing up to the hero sandwich. How many people have had the guts to say "the emporer has no clothes" before Mike came on the scene. We now see (or read) that Fred can't even get through a debate without his goon squad on site. Is he a coward too? Why would the County Sheriff need his uniformed armed guards at the debate? Are we paying for the time for 4 or 5 of them to spend their time on duty there? Is it because he knew or planned to be rude and provoke anger in the crowd like he did and he wanted to be able to enforce his statements with strong arms against his public? It sounds like Fred was petty and childish and Mike was adult and a leader.

Mike's loudmouth supporters, whoever they are, have to realize they are hurting his chances and they should stay home and not act like a crazy, unprofessional mob. That includes Randy, if that was him yelling in the audience. If Randy is starting to get emotional about this to where he can't control himself calmly, he shouldn't go and whether he should have a high office is questionable.

Voters - look at the recent behavior of the two men and vote for Mike to have more professionalism in our Sheriff's Office. You can see it in each man, what they are about. Fred is all bluster and temper and can't be a man about any criticism. He blows up at a citizen asking for him to follow the law and he is rude and obnoxious to the public at an event. You can't trust what he'll do in a bad situation. I'm no doctor, but he seems kind of unstable, and I wouldn't say that lightly. He promised last time that he wouldn't run again. It's too bad he thinks his word isn't worth anything. If "Character Counts" then you have plenty of reason to throw the man out and let Mike Graves bring a new approach to the Sheriff's Office and bring some of the integrity back.

Mike, if you read this - it's a big problem that people can't hear you. Even people who have been at your events in person say you can't be heard and it makes them want to leave. Please learn to project your voice QUICK! :sos: A chunk of your closing statement was completely lost because of talking in fast whisper. I don't even see anybody discussing it, so maybe nobody heard it very well or knew what you were talking about. Hopefully, you can get that out in writing somewhere?

Thank you Mike. You have my vote. Please keep your gang in line, though. It looks bad.


Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:04 am
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
285alive and Windchime, thank you for making good points and letting me know more of what was happening. It's good to know and think about. The jury is still out on Randy, though. If he was the one who complained loudly that he wasn't going to allow the Sheriff to sit there and cut him down, he needs to grow up. This is a campaign. Yes, Fred was acting like a little boy (bully boy comes to mind), but if you stoop to his level, you hurt yourself, not him.

My apologies to Mike for thinking he was part of the boorish crowd from both sides. Apparently he was able to maintain his composure better than others in the room. To the rowdy bunch - you need to get wise to how much damage you are doing. I still see one of the same people at another forum spreading around the crazy attacks about the credit card being all the Sheriff's spending, begging for $400,000 a month, and so forth. Opinion is not fact and when people rant without knowing facts, it's destructive. Once your honesty is discredited, you do a lot of damage to yourself and your candidate.

I do think Mike is the better candidate, but if he had to run based on how good his campaign committee was handled, it wouldn't look good.

You still need to be qualified to supervise children to hold office in this county. :D

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Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:49 am
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
I noticed that blame game, too. Graves thinks somebody should have pursued the story he wanted done by some "investigative reporter" instead of having somebody from his crazy brigade actually do some work in a civil manner. He must think he is back in the big city where there are a dozen media outlets with big budgets to chase down government scandals. He doesn't know that, here in Park County, you get nothing like that done, obvious crimes don't get prosecuted, and nothing gets chased down unless you help do it yourself. There just aren't the resources. And, with our DA, there aren't the gonads.

Having said that, it's a shame we're now spending so much time talking about the behavior of the audience and not the content of the debate. When the supporters become unruly and take the light off the important information, you know it's out of control. The same crazies that were thrown out of here and another website are now back alive in the new one throwing around accusations that uncharged (much less convicted) crimes were committed and other completely wild statements that kill their own cause. If they say it was covered up and they can't get the file on it, how can they declare that everything rumored happened? They just make it up with no proof? It's a little scary to know we have people that detached from reality living right here in Bailey. Between the wild deputies and the crazy citizens, the rest of us don't have a chance at any kind of normal life.

I agree we need a change, but where do we find "leaders" that don't surround themselves with nutcases like Fred's goon squad, Mike's crazy brigade, or Wissels kids threatening everyone? They won't even disavow the nutcases. I hardly see anybody I feel safe voting for. :sadly: I'm really feeling bad about my county. It's dirty.


Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:21 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
I would like to clarify a few things on the night of the debates, because I was sitting in the back of the room. Who ever attended that night would recognize the old fat gray bearded man and that would be me. The first thing is that Randy was sitting right next to me and at no time did he ever stand up or made any comment what so ever. The only one that stood up was Monty Gore who was right in front of me and that was when the commotion started. Secondly the commotion that erupted came from the middle of the room and what I witness was a few people became upset with what Fred was saying.
I was personally impressed how Mike and Randy handle them self after Fred was degrading the both of them. That folks is what good training does for excellent law enforcement.


Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:38 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
Thanks outlawdenn. It's good of you to come in and give us your perspective. That seems more like professionals to me. I can't figure out why others in the crowd think that these debates are all about them instead of being about the public getting to hear the candidates and make a choice. It seems a little crazy out this year. There must be a lot more at stake than just an election.

The people who disrupted the event should offer an apology and stay out of future events since they are obviously not there to learn anything or make a decision. That would go for the armed, uniformed officers as well. Both sides are being antagonistic. Just my opinion.


Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:10 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
A Men to that jethroB!


Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:52 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
Very relieved to hear that, outlawdenn. Thank you.

I guess you need to be qualified to supervise children just to attend a debate. #-o It is time for a change. This has all gone too far.

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Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:51 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
The disturbing part is that the deputy who was supposedly fooling around with teenage girls was the same one who was supposed to be on duty the day the shooter entered Platte Canyon HS and shot Emily. And he wasn't fired? He was kept on the force another two years and didn't "leave" until 2008 when he went to work as a cop for another department. Did the investigation and complaints not make it into his record? Would Fred have been admitting he knew it was a bad person to have as a School Resource Officer after finding out he was having sex with teenagers?

Is Fred a hero for letting a teenager-loving deputy continue to work in a high school and having that untrustworthy deputy on duty, but mysteriously absent, on the day Emily was murdered? If Fred had done his job and gotten the offending deputy out of the school when he first presented a problem, would Emily be alive today?

If Mike and others are so sure this happened, why don't they have the evidence after all this time? If they can't get any evidence, how can they be sure it actually did happen? Apparently there's some admission that the deputy had sex with teenagers, but not that a crime was committed? Pretty vague.

So many questions. Maybe we'll never know because neither side is presenting any proof.

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Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:55 am
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
Thanks for the input from people who were there. It was hard to follow some of it just from the video, no matter how great those are. They've done a bangup job getting those up.

It isn't hard to read and follow what Mike's campaign committee is saying about anybody who doesn't join their insanity. They have the left-wing approach of throwing out masses of garbage and hoping something sticks. They don't get their numbers straight even after they've been corrected on it and attack anybody who ISN'T a raving lunatic as though they've been bought off or something.

Somebody who attracts crazies like sandspurs to a wool sock doesn't need community support. He needs some kind of repellent. I guess I just won't vote in that race. What a shame. So many of us were so hopeful to have that office cleaned up. But, as we see with other elections, change for the sake of change can really spell disaster.

On the coroner's race, if I may change the subject, it seems that Tammy lying about her experience (hundreds of cases) doesn't stop her, and Kintz actually ended up looking bad after that one instead of Tammy. Pretty funny how that works. But it also looks like our current coroner and Kintz seem to have lied about part of her background, so they kill their own credibility.

Tammy wins that debate hands down. Kintz looked like a spoiled kid who wanted to take his toys and go home because his opponent wouldn't just go away. I don't personally know either of them, does anybody else have an opinion on that one?

No news in the commissioner debate. Lilly still can't push her tax idea to an overtaxed audience, and Mark won't help get the numbers to show us what the other Comm building options would cost. He just vaguely says he doesn't like what the other guys are doing. Samantha has some good sense but little experience. You have to wonder if going in fresh isn't a good idea, though, considering the options. Lilly says nobody can do the job without previous experiece. She just insulted 99% of all of our past commissioners. She's a typical government employee for life. She's not all that bright, either. And would bring a lot of baggage and conflict of interest. No way.

jethroB, welcome aboard! And you're right. The people who aren't at the meets to learn something should stay home and not ruin it for the rest of the public. The CC boys are bad, but the people in the audience who think the events are all about them and not about the candidates and voters are no better. Both gangs stop the real info from getting out.

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Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:24 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
A perspective on the crazies that have attached themselves to Mike. They are not his campaign committee. I think they're people who have such a hatred of Fred that if the devil himself ran against him they'd vote for the devil. I don't think it would do any good for Mike (even if he knew their identities) to ask them to back off, as their vendetta toward Fred overrules all else. At the last debate he kept telling the shouting couple to let Fred speak. He is not encouraging this insanity.

I have talked with Mike several times at candidate things and at meetings where he was introducing himself and I think he is up to the job. I do not think he is the Second Coming. I can tell you that Jeffco deputies that live in ParkCo are more favorable toward him than they are toward Fred. I can tell you that he is the more qualified of the two men. And I can tell you that I am voting for him.

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Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:11 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
Sorry, Windchime, but you're wrong about that. Those people who were banned from this board and another forum because they were out of control are the same ones attached to the committee that used his name with his permission. They are posting the exact same BS. They were organizing his events, handing out his literature. He knows exactly who they are. I'm sure he will appreciate your loyalty, but he has never distanced himself publicly from them or said that what they were doing or saying was wrong. He keeps campaigning with them. He knows who they are and what they are saying. Randy Wagner was even over there posting with them attacking somebody who simply said they didn't support Mike. Randy insulted the whole PCSO, including deputies who might have supported Mike.

Everything comes out eventually. He is judged by the people he chooses to have in his inner circle.

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Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:04 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
roadrunner, thank you for the welcome. It's good to be here.

I was noticing that the new board has some enthusiastic people who are accusing Parkbull of removing documents and saying that the Visa statements no longer exist. They really hate this place and nothing will stand in their way of hating things. Windchime seems to be right about that. There's no sense to it. I am happy I didn't go there instead of here. It took me about two seconds to find the document the person yelled was missing. Nothing seems to be backed up over there. And yes, we saw the same type of behavior on Pinecam when people were removed for wild accusations and hysterics. I watched the same people ignore rules and get kicked out here. This board has anti-Fred criticism as well as anti-Mike criticism with people called or challenged on unsupported facts. My kind of place. :)

I do say that the videos of the debates are extremely valuable. And the PCRCC seemed thrilled to have them on board. They have gotten a little repetitive, but there's always some little tidbit that makes them worth watching. I have watched them all.

It's too bad that so many people don't understand what their civil and constitutional rights really are so they pretend it's license to do whatever they want. Some day, we should start a kindergarten-level course on the constitution so people will realize that they can't impose on everyone else's rights in order to assert their own. Interrupting a public meeting to speak one's mind so that others can't listen to the meeting is not a right of anyone's. We saw that same behavior by a fire department officer when he didn't think someone had a right to speak, in his own mind. He trampled on the rights of others to hear what the man was saying, just like the outbursts at debates do here. It's usually the practice of radical liberals to try to stop other people from having the right to talk. A weird sort of censorship while claiming a false First Amendment right.

roadrunner, I have to agree on the commissioner's race. No stars there. They appear to have a lack of basic understanding of tax and finance, and certainly are not conservatives. Bertin might be, but she can't explain it so we don't know. And she probably won't win but will act as a spoiler to get Wissel voted through the primary.

The coroner's race is interesting. Tammy Davis needs to give up some other campaigning time and work on a plan for getting out her vote. If she can't motivate the vote, the government-backed candidate will always take the primary because the paychecks vote in primaries. I like that Davis has a money-saving focus unlike our current coroner and the young man. Increasing one's budget by almost 1,000 percent is not an accomplishment, in my book. It's a reason to kick out the incumbent and anyone they support.


Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 am
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
the sheriff didnt look too good in that. after saying stupid comments he looked like he was looking back at graves to save him from the crowd. too much yelling for a serious meeting. its not a protest event. but interesting to watch the sheriff. but why would graves have to shut his supporters up? they dont know how to act in public?


Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:06 pm
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Post Re: Video of Debate 7/14/10 in Bailey
Did you see that the old commissioner endorsed Davey Kintz? That's Leni Walker, famous for trying to raise taxes on the county almost every single year she was in office. Maybe that's who convinced him the coroner's budget was so small. She also was very cozy with Kintz Sr. as she ran R&B for most of her time in office. The downfall of R&B and the condition of our roads are a lot to do with her mismanagement. But she wants to keep the Kintz family dynasty in place and give it even more power! Wouldn't we like to know the reason for that!

On another front, I have a question and hope it's not an old one already answered. I didn't find it in the other threads. Mike Graves has said that he wanted to have an outside audit done of the Sheriff's Department? I guess the whole department - or is it just the jail? Auditing politicians is always a good idea in my book. But it's not clear what he's looking for or what he thinks is happening. That would be interesting to hear. Something we should know. Has anybody heard anything on that?


Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:04 am
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